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It's a shame that I don't have two donor Dinos - that way I could build one as a V12 and the other as a twin-turbo V8, and then keep the one I preferred*...

Regarding the transverse/longitudinal issue - while I prefer the better polar moment of the former, I think the latter has more appeal from an installation point of view - especially if one is factoring in the twin-turbo concept. I remain open-minded on the matter though - I just wish I knew more about the ins and outs of the different engines I have to choose from, such as their inherent strengths and weaknesses, the availability and cost of parts, which are the nicest to work on, etc!


* Which, of course, means keeping both...

I do product development and I've never been able to do a project based on engineering at home or honestly at work. The 1 course that helps the most is the one I kind of took by mistake, anthropology. Its helps me with the VOC (voice of customer) stuff and VOC is how everything begins.

Henry Ford didn't feel that way and once said "If I asked my customers what they wanted they would have said a after horse" or similar. He took that to mean there was no point in asking, but what I tell my teams is that people explain in terms they understand so you usually need follow-on questions like:
how far do you need to go usually?
how many people come with you?
do you need carry stuff too?

and suddenly the faster horse they are describing is a car, they just didn't know that because they'd never seen one.

I says all this because I hear technical terms and solutions before I'm hearing what exactly it is you want to build. Please forgive me if you know all this but it was sounding like the project is a bit adrift and basic goals are how I like to stake projects down.

Step 1 is what do you want?

You want:

A 246GT with modern performance. Yes?

Mostly stock looking exterior because its pretty darn good looking as is. yes?

Interior of donor is missing and stupid expensive to replace so this will be modern street/race finish. Yes?

Street "legal" as in registered to drive on the street. Yes?

now it gets harder.

Street legal can mean a lot of things.
My 308 has illegal brakes and excessive noise so by legal I mean it can be operated with low chance of being cited for the violations (which would ruin my day).
I want to be able to get in and out so a proper roll cage is not an option.
I want it to look factory to the untrained eye...ferrari guy will spot the mods a mile away but ford guys won't.
I want to be able to drive to local autocross events, so tolerate the ride and noise for up to 90 minutes.
I want to drive on local roads....so that limits how low and how stiff the suspension can be.
I want to be able to let others drive it...so I need to watch how hard the brake pads/pedal are and how stiff/digital the clutch is, maybe valet mode and traction control
It needs to pass (or mostly pass) state inspection so all oem lights, wipers and such.

Just 1 simple basic thing turns into 1/2 dozen specs, that for me are worth writing down, because now I have a plan I can follow, when I see a part on ebay I can buy it knowing I'll use it.

...but there really was no engineering in any of that and I'm about to argue the same is true for most of the rest of the design rough out.

Engine choice
Engine says and Honda would do, set the required output then select the lightest option to achieve it that says in budget....and the answer is always a 4 cylinder as that will get you 1000hp with a turbo on even a modest budget.

so the real questions are
What do you want it to sound like?

How much vibration do you like to feel? Flat crank V8s shake a bit so the effort goes into smoothing it, Vs a straight 6 or 12cyl that are silky smooth so often you want to transfer some of the shake on purpose.

What do you like to look at in the engine bay? You said ITBs I thing so why? to look at? meaning covering them with turbo stuff is bad?

I would argue this is a pretty import place to spend time....drive a few things maybe, look at a lot of pictures. Its way more about what you like than engineering.....Ferrari builds V12s because Ferrari builds V12s, the engineering reasons died in the 1960s or 70s when valve springs got better. BMW does straight 6s because they are smooth, but so are balance shaft 4 cylinders. I think the 12 or V8 boils down to how stuffed do you want the engine bay to look?

Then hp. how much? Hooking up more than about 400-450 is a challenge and like a 308, the 246 is very short wheel base so unstable at high speed meaning that even once you get it moving lot of hp isn't really helpful. The hp number tell you the size engine you need or if you'll be running boost. NA vs boost sound completely different and I would argue this is about the biggest consideration to how the car makes you feel driving it so I would say make that call early and work backwards from that choice to pick/design the engine.

Once you pick the engine.....well it needs a transmission and that will kind of determine what direction the engine gets mounted. At 92" wheelbase the car is going to turn very well and I seriously doubt you'd ever be able to actually measure a different the resulted from the engine orientation or a couple inches of engine CG change, but if you thing you will be able to measure it then you need a turbo honda 4cyl because all the engineering says that is the right choice

That's how I do this stuff, so hope it helps, if not then by all means ignore it.

Thank you so much for taking what must have been a considerable time to pass your wisdom my way!

Before I answer any of the questions you posed, the main point I should make is that I want to do this because I want to build the car (whatever that may be); driving it afterwards is a secondary matter!

So - I want:

'A 246GT with modern performance. Yes?'
Yes.

'Mostly stock looking exterior because its pretty darn good looking as is. Yes?'
Yes.

'Interior of donor is missing and stupid expensive to replace so this will be modern street/race finish. Yes?'
No - I have the complete interior for it, but you're right about me preferring a modern street/race finish as I think trying to make it look authentic would be faux.

'Street "legal" as in registered to drive on the street. Yes?'
Yes.

Going through the other stuff - yes, you're right about the peripherals not being subject to (m)any engineering constraints. Over here in the UK we have strict annual vehicle inspections known as an 'MOT' (Ministry of Transport), so everything would have to be street legal unless the whole car was over 40 years old (as it would then become MOT-exempt). It would still need to comply with Construction & Use Regulations though. Since I want a modern engine it wouldn't comply with the 40-year bit, so it'd need to pass the said test.

I would like a roll cage, but I'd need to look it exactly what made sense rather than what would be necessary under race regs.

All the stuff you listed about being the car being drive-able, etc. applies to me too.

Engine choice - at this stage I am completely open as to what I fit so long as it says Ferrari on it and produces sufficient hp.

Sound? Something that makes testosterone flow.

Vibration? Don't care.

I don't recall commenting on ITBs, but turbos, etc. are all good with me.

Number of cylinders? I think 8, although 12 would tick my boxes if it fitted well.

Longitudinal/transverse? For the reasons I stated earlier, longitudinal would be my preference, but as you rightly say, the choice of transmission may well have casting vote.

The hp figure I'd want is, as you say, clearly a decision that needs to be made early. Again, as I said somewhere above, the ideal would be to be able to switch between 'Eco'*, 'Sport', and 'Race'.

*That was, of course, said rather tongue-in-cheek...

My biggest weakness in all this is simply not knowing enough about the various engines and transmissions that are available. As an example, would a 12-cylinder motor from a front-engined variant fit onto a mid-engined transmission? I don't know, and don't know where to find out without recourse to the knowledge of people like yourself. As MerlinTech rightly said, I have to be careful where I talk about this project or people will be sticking pins in effigies of me...

The questions were for you mostly and intended to help focus your thoughts.

Like engine sound....just like paint color you need to pick something. you can and I think did say its irrelevant so other things will frive the engine choice.

What are the other things? Weight, size, hp I guess?

So there are a few limitation on engine/trans combos. The TR trans goes with a TR engine, I'm pretty sure its the oil pan. The transvers 308/328 trans goes with a 308/328 engine although the 348 is pretty close so not a ton of work to fit or a 308/328 block could be fitted with 348 liners and heads, and 348/355/360 cranks options.

The longitudinal engines whether front or rear original install can be used in a rear longitudinal install with some kind of trans adapter plate. Not a straight bolt-on but not hard or expensive to mix and match. The problem is space and that means, at least for a 308 swap, the only viable option is the 355 trans and a V8. I think, although I maybe wrong and maybe Wade knows, the 430 and new V8s are a little longer than the 308-360 engines, for sure the bore centers increased so I'm guess the length did as well and V12s are right out.

Those are the easier(ish)options then we start talking about moving the wheels back like ferrari did to make the 308 into the 288 and F40, it was 4inches 308 to 288 which added better high speed stability and made room to swing the engine longitudinal. Or you can angle the axles, its not ideal but if you truly are not going to drive it well I guess it doesn't matter.

This bring us back to what do you want and how hard are you willing to work to get it?

How tall are you ....wondering if you can give up a little cabin room if the firewall has to move? That and a 355 trans would probably get you a longitudinal 430/458 engine. The intake will stick out the decklid unless you change the design....and that means new ECU...and the 458 is direct injection so that limits the options a bit so the 500hp 430 might be the easier way to go if that is enough hp for you? or turbos if you want more. 500 NA hp is also possible with the older V8, build it 3.6liter, good porting in the heads, good cams, ITBs should get you there.

Done as a transvers it appears you just drop it in and bolt it down...but if its really not what you want, build what you want and make it longitudinal. Or build what I want you to build and use a TR engine

there are aftermarket ECU options for direct injection, just mostly they are pretty expensive and a bit harder to tune. motec for sure but is quite expensive. The opensource rusEFI is now doing DI and has a couple BMW V12 DI engines running that I saw so that is a much more budget friendly option is you decide to go 458 engine. I was just saying the port injection all ECUs can do and its more forgiving tuning wise so an easier path. Or you could port port injection on a 458.

Also is the 430/458 paddleshift gearbox high on your wish list or would the 355 manual be acceptable?

Found the video I was thinking of...just skip until you see the dino. They specifically talk about what fits and how tight....then skip and they drive it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZEweQC8xRc

For sure the engine bay is tighter than a 308, like a lot tighter. they say 500hp and I have no reason to doubt, it looks fast but my personal issue with turbo cars is it just doesn't sound good to my ear. I even went down and played it on the theater speakers, it does nothing for me.

but then play a NA engine.....for me personally there is no comparison, the NA is just sensory overload.
https://studio.youtube.com/video/o4Y39qrcmMg/edit

I will say that the same is true for the way the car makes vibration....it just changes the driving experience. OEMs have whole teams that work to get this just right. I remember when I first got the 308 and went for a drive, I pulled over and called my father to report everyone should experience this at least once in their lives.....just magic.

Fast forward to this engine and it was stupid fast but I just didn't love driving it
https://youtu.be/juYvdczNdFs

The it was all the stock exhaust volume but then the blower screaming over top of it so much louder, same engine and motor mounts and all so I know the vibration wasn't different, it was for sure a lot faster, right about 500crankhp.....but not the same feel.

The V12 is a lot closer to the OEM magic but maybe just too loud for my taste, need to get it sorted and get more seat time. Little things matter I guess and this is why I suggested seeing what you can get a ride in.

Weight is always an issue for me - some (like my pit crew) would say that I'm obsessed by it. But then again, it shouldn't be a surprise because my specialty back in my days as a pro race-engineer was trying to find 1/100th of a second on every corner. It's ironic that I used to work for the Ferrari UK Sportscar Team - I should know a hell of a lot about 360 Modenas, but as the engines were built for us by Michelotto and then sealed, I took next to no notice of them. We used Hewland transaxles - this would be my preferred route too, but don't know anything about running them on the road rather than the track. Anyone here know of any issues with doing this?



That is certainly the sort of thing I've been focusing in on!



Yes, that would be really helpful to know!



When I said that I'm not going to drive it, perhaps I should have phrased that a bit more carefully - what I meant was that the primary objective was to enjoy building it. I would love to drive it on special days and possibly even compete in it - nothing serious, but the occasional drag-race or sprint-hillclimb would be the icing on the cake!



I'm 5' 10 1/2" - so short enough to move the firewall forwards a bit.

I am very much intending to use a new ECU - getting away from the factory item would be mandatory!



A 500 hp 430 is certainly in the target zone, with, as you say, the option to add turbos if necessary.

I haven't looked into the port/direct injection issue - which of the V8s use which?



It's not even on my list - gated manual would be my preference, but at the end of the day I'd go with the most pragmatic solution!

430 and older are port injection, 458 and newer are DI

Thanks for the wise words and all the links - although this one doesn't work:



At the end of the day, I think I'd be happy to settle for whatever sound and vibration I get!

I should say that all your input is very much appreciated - I need to have something interesting to think about as I'm on a major organisational clear-up (i.e. very dull days) and have been seven days a week for a couple of months.

Ten years of neglecting all the stuff that was gradually accumulating both inside and outside my garage/workshop took its toll, and as my Good Lady has been getting the garden/yard re-modelled it was quite clear that getting ahead of her and putting my zone back to an acceptable standard would be 'a Good Thing'.

As part of it I've also been doing jobs like building extra tool racks, sorting the enormous amount of steel/aluminium/stainless/titanium stock onto separate shelves, fitting up more bin-racking for stainless fasteners, sorting stuff to go to the scrap yard, etc. So it'll be worth it in the end, but in the meantime it's depressingly boring!